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Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

  • 1.  Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-07-2023 06:41 PM

    Hello,

    We calibrated to new inks last week and I would like someone to explain to what causes a spike shown in the dot gain graph but, first I would like to explain my process.

    1. Plate Linearization: I output a raw plate with no plate curve or print curve applied. I read in the numbers and created a calibrated linear plate curve.
    2. Initial Press Run: Output 4 plates (CMYK) with new calibrated linear plates. Press ran too specs and I start to measure P2P51 to create plate curves.
    3. After creation of curves, and plates are created, press runs enough sheets to back to baseline. A spike in the dot gain graph when viewing the quality monitor on the image control occurs at the 5-10 range. 
    4. We do our first iteration of curve adjustments, spike is still there.

    After multiple iterations and manual moves, the spike never goes away.

    What causes this spike? Are my plates truly not linear? I put screenshots of what our Image Control console shows when reading a sheet as attachments.



    ------------------------------
    Christian Johnson G7 Expert
    Prepress Manager
    CPCneutek
    Grand Junction CO
    (970) 623-0518
    christian.johnson@...
    ------------------------------


  • 2.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-08-2023 08:27 AM

    Is there any chance you are getting a double dot?



    ------------------------------
    Steven Hailson G7 Expert
    Senior Production & Planning Manager
    Autajon Boston
    Nashua NH
    (603) 595-0700
    ------------------------------



  • 3.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-08-2023 11:13 AM

    Hi Steven,

    I have not heard the term double dot before. Could you please explain?



    ------------------------------
    Christian Johnson G7 Expert
    Prepress Manager
    CPCneutek
    Grand Junction CO
    (970) 623-0518
    christian.johnson@...
    ------------------------------



  • 4.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-10-2023 08:30 AM

    I had a client with an older press that had gripper issues. Because of this, he would print two dots, one right next to the other. Because they were so close to each other you could only see them in the highlight areas. (1-10%). A 2% dot would look like a figure 8. As the dots got larger they would blend into one another so you would not notice them.

    This is a rare occurance, but I thought I would throw it out there.



    ------------------------------
    Steven Hailson G7 Expert
    Senior Production & Planning Manager
    Autajon Boston
    Nashua NH
    (603) 595-0700
    ------------------------------



  • 5.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-09-2023 09:24 AM
    Christian,

    I suspect it's some kind of conflict between your plate linearization curves and your G7 calibration curves, or more likely, the fact that you're even linearizing the plates in the first place.

    I stopped linearizing offset plates 25 years ago when I discovered how unstable and pointless that process can be – especially when you're only going to replace those curves with G7 calibration curves a few minutes later.

    First of all, it's extremely difficult to get a reliable reading of plate dot size with a true plate reader (with microscope and camera) and even harder with an area-integrating spectrophotometer like the otherwise excellent Techkon Spectrodens.

    Secondly, I have been told by plate technologists from Agfa and Kodak that any visible plate emulsion left over after processing is an accidental by-product of exposure and development and was never designed to be a true and faithful representation of how that dot will print.
    For example, the emulsion thickness on small dots is typically thinner than on larger dots, which confuses an integrating device like the Spectrodens into thinking those dots are smaller.

    The same experts showed me under a microscope that the perimeter of a visible dot's emulsion "cap" is often damaged in processing and therefore slightly smaller or larger than the ink-holding dot beneath it, depending on whether the plates are positive-working plates or negative-working.

    These emulsion- and processing- dependent characteristics can vary from plate to plate throughout the day even when there is no variation in the resulting printing characteristics of the final plates.

    This information explains why the so-called "dot size" reported by any plate-measuring instrument will often be significantly different from the effective dot size printed on paper, especially in light highlights areas, where a 5% or 2% dot is often invisible on plate but will actually hold more ink than predicted. In these highlight areas, the plate linearization process compensates by increasing small dot values in the RIP, which could well account for that nasty highlight bump in your graphs.

    The result of all the above is that the so-called "plate linearization" curves you've struggled so diligently to create are probably causing a very non-linear "press linearization", which is not only a waste of time and materials, but actually sets the G7 calibration process up for failure.


    Please try setting your plate curves to NULL and just do a simple G7 calibration. Check the predicted curves in your G7 software and, if necessary, include several light control points (e.g. 2, 4, 6, 8, 10, etc.) to ensure the best possible "press linearization" in critical light tones. As long as your platemaking and press system are stable and repeatable, the G7 calibration should work beautifully first time and I suspect that terrible bump in the light tones will disappear.

    The only real argument against my wicked, heretical, anti-establishment advice, is "how do I maintain my plate process?"
    There are two simple answers:

    1. For base-level plate control, measure a few patches (e.g. 25, 50, 75) on the first NULL plate, prior to going on press. Don't panic if they are different from the nominal values, (e.g. 23, 55, 78) – just use those measured values when checking an uncalibrated plate of a new batch.

    2. A more useful approach is to measure the same 25, 50, 75 patches on a the first G7-calibrated plate. Those values can then be used in production to measure any plate on its way to press.

    In both cases, either avoid measuring very small dots (e.g. 2%), or pay no attention if they seem to vary from plate to plate. And don't over-react if you see slight changes throughout the day in the 25, 50 and 75 patches. No CTP system I know of can have that much variation – it's almost certainly just normal variability in how the emulsion is washed off during processing.
    If you keep editing the plate curves to try and cancel these small variations, you will just create instability on press where none had really existed.


    So to summarize, it looks like plate linearization may be a big part of your problem.

    In fact in my opinion, plate linearization is a complete waste of time and causes more problems than it's worth, especially when you follow it with G7 calibration. But then, who cares about my opinion?

    Don

    **************************
    Don Hutcheson
    President
    HutchColor, LLC
    908-500-0341
    **************************










  • 6.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-09-2023 03:15 PM

    Hi Don,

    Its funny you mentioned not linearizing the plates. When I talked to Kodak, they mentioned with the plates we're using, some others do not create a plate curve as well.

    My investigation is pointing to the linear plate curve being my issue.

    Thank you for the detailed explanation. I greatly appreciate it!



    ------------------------------
    Christian Johnson G7 Expert
    Prepress Manager
    CPCneutek
    Grand Junction CO
    (970) 623-0518
    christian.johnson@...
    ------------------------------



  • 7.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-10-2023 08:55 AM

    Chiming in without adding any useful comments.

    Thank you Don for your details on the futility of plate linearization. I always saw it as a "control point" in the process of getting ink on paper. Your explanation of post development emulsion left on the plate and plate reader inaccuracies finally made the light go off in my brain.



    ------------------------------
    Harold Anderson G7 Expert
    Prepress Lead
    Trojan Lithograph Corporation
    Renton WA
    (800) 227-7775
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  • 8.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-10-2023 11:21 AM

    To ensure future plate verification, it is necessary to document the readings of non-linearized plates. If the accuracy of plate values is later questioned, it is crucial to verify that the same values are being imaged as when the G7 curves were created. A linearized plate simplifies the process of verifying 50% as it remains constant, but a non-linearized plate may show 48% instead of 50%.

    I'd be surprised you are seeing a 15% increase at the 25% due to linearizing the plate. Are you using processless plates or processed plates? 



    ------------------------------
    Angus Pady
    FUJIFILM North America Corporation - Graphic Systems Division
    Hanover Park IL
    (630) 259-7200
    ------------------------------



  • 9.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-08-2023 09:35 AM

    Is this Flexo? It looks like the bump caused by a minimum dot setting. I don't have a ton of experience in flexo, but this would be somewhat normal in that case.



    ------------------------------
    Bret Hesler
    Color Management
    UNIMAC Graphics
    Carlstadt NJ
    (201) 372-1000
    ------------------------------



  • 10.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-08-2023 10:56 AM

    Hi Brett,

    No, this is not flexo. Its an offset press, a Heidelberg CD74. Calibrating to 18pt C1S board.



    ------------------------------
    Christian Johnson G7 Expert
    Prepress Manager
    CPCneutek
    Grand Junction CO
    (970) 623-0518
    christian.johnson@...
    ------------------------------



  • 11.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-08-2023 01:32 PM

    I'd have to see the curve values to judge what's going on there.



    ------------------------------
    Bret Hesler
    Color Management
    UNIMAC Graphics
    Carlstadt NJ
    (201) 372-1000
    ------------------------------



  • 12.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-10-2023 01:27 PM

    Sorry, but I have to weigh in on the subject of not linearizing plates since it seems to be gaining traction. Plate linearization is the foundation on which you build all your curves to compensate for variables. Like press, substrate, UV or conventional inks and color aims. 

    The benefit to incorporating a plate linearization curve is that if you change plate vendors or replace equipment, or even want to try out a new plate all you have to do is linearize that demo plate, new plate or new platesetter. All your "compensate for variables" curves will still be valid.

    Without a linearization curve in your process you have to recreate every single variable curve for every press every substrate and every ink set if you change plates or platesetting equpiment

    That being said, you should be using a true plate reader to linearize your plates like an x-rite iCPlate2 and not a spectrophotometer. A spectro offers to read plates, but it is not designed to do that so it is inaccurate. therefor your plate linearization data will not be accurate



    ------------------------------
    Steven Hailson G7 Expert
    Senior Production & Planning Manager
    Autajon Boston
    Nashua NH
    (603) 595-0700
    ------------------------------



  • 13.  RE: Calibrating to G7: Where did I go wrong?

    Posted 08-10-2023 01:50 PM

    Stephen,

    I 100% agree. We have had no issues doing G7 press calibrations from a linear plate using a plate reader.


    I am leaving a site where we are doing a plate test and they did not have a linear plate curve and it is significantly more problematic and time-consuming. 

    you are correct. For every new plate iteration that I have to make I have to do a compensation curve on the CTP to match the uncalibrated plates. If they were linear, I would have one curve that would apply to all my press curves.  


    When I see a bump at the 25% like that I will always look at my pH and water balance. I would strongly recommend that the operator ensure that he looks at all the press variables because to me this looks like a press issue. Assuming that you validated your plate curve. Make sure that they check the blankets and the torque on the blankets to the appropriate specifications. Check the water balance, bring the water down until it's scumming and then bring it up enough to remove the scum. 

    is there any glazing on the rollers?

    Did you verify registration?

    How old are the rollers?



    ------------------------------
    Angus Pady
    FUJIFILM North America Corporation - Graphic Systems Division
    Hanover Park IL
    (630) 259-7200
    ------------------------------